Tools, begone

[slowmover]

I thought about adding several comments about the much-vaunted hitch guru to the north..... suffice it to say, I would not buy anything nor rely on his advice for anything.

Andrew Thomson is consultant to both SAE and Airstream on Towing matters. Are you? (Anyone with this basic opinion; the opinion, NOT the person). And, “you've” also set up more than 12,000 towing combinations, is that right?

Understand that if that “you” weren’t one of the new guys in this — suckered by TV advertising and Internet sheep bleats — that what Thomson has done is to codify what works and doesn’t. IOW, had “you” been in this the past fifty years and had twenty or more years with cars ALONE (where we had our hitches BUILT locally; far better than what’s on “your TV or mine at present) it all makes easy sense. It took the rest of us longer to get to the same place as Andy.

A). It’s not the weight of the trailer. If it was “you” would have installed antilock trailer disc brakes. I’d bet none of “you” have. (Therefore, this is Lie #1)

B). If the TW were such a concern, then where are the scale tickets?. Should be four of them:

1). TARE weight (Driver only with max fuel and empty besides permanent gear)
2). Combined Rig with WDH tensioned
3). Combined Rig with WDH fully slack
4). Solo TV, loaded for camping (all additional weight past #1)

(Lack of a numerical baseline is both Lie #2 and #3).

A 1k TW is easily calculated as to distribution. It’s a formula. Based on 8th grade physics. Leverage. Based on distances and spring rates. It ain’t rocket science.

It’s almost always that 66-74% remains at the TV based on several factors as to how much weight remains on One point: the hitch ball. And the remaining weight is spread fore & aft to Two more points for a total of Three points: Steer, Drive and Trailer Axles. 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 is how we referred to it.

Do any of “you” understand that a fifth wheel or gooseneck hitch works for the same result? The weight is balanced to produce the same result as a WD hitch. The difference is that it’s almost always a heavy trailer — ours are not — and it loads the rear axle with a TW of 20-25% versus 12.5%. And it barely changes the Steer Axle at all. It eliminates carrying any significant weight in the truck bed. Therein lays the difference (besides trailer design/description).

Properly set up, that 70-something percent remaining on the TV is split in two so that Steer & Drive Axles share the load. The Steer weighs the same as when solo (weigh #4). It’s 300 to 400 lbs to each TV axle. That’s ALWAYS car territory. (As it doesn’t equate to “payload”. Who told you it does?)

Once set properly, the trailer & tongue weights ARE NOT a serious consideration for towing safety. Again, who told “you” it was? Please explain the reasoning. (It’s not a legal matter of liability either. Axle limits are always that).


Here are the questions which matter:

1). What is the PRIMARY cause of a loss-of-control accident with a combined TT rig of any sort and with any hitch design?

2). What is the SECONDARY cause?

3). How does one minimize that risk?

(“You” want to be laughed out of the room by the adults you’ll try and cite “experience” or “skill”).

The questions are statistically valid.


Oh, and by the way. It’s MUCH easier to roll an Avion than an Airstream. Suspension design REALLY matters. The width of the track on an AS is at the wheel face. On an Avion it’s at the point where the leaf is attached to the axle. Please measure the two distances cited.

How far inboard is that attach point, and what percentage of weight is either atop OR OUTSIDE that point?. Go inside and make those measurements.

Is it one-third or one-half the depth of the cabinetry?

When we tell “you” new guys to load heavy stuff down low and to the center we aren’t kidding. Side-to-side, not just front/rear.

(I hope I don’t have to mention to ALWAYS travel with full fresh water).

The preparatory work above (WD rough-in at home, the various scale tickets), are the beginning. Not an end. One has to fine tune. To find what — in the end — is the small range of adjustment change from a light to heavy camping load. Thats the duty of a man

It’s also how one sets tire pressure.

Hope none of “you” has answered, “what tire pressure?”, questions and “you” don’t know the load NOR the proper value (That’s Lie #3 above).

Have a numerical, repeatable baseline. Is the very first step. A constant reference. Ask for help. But ask someone who actually knows something. With the above number set, you have what they need. (A picture set of the rig on the scale is the other).

..

[Rostam]

Glad to see you Slowmover.

The shop up north, as the name suggests, is an RV shop, not an engineering firm. The owner does not have a background in auto engineering, and has no clue what went into the design/development/testing of all the vehicles he is talking about. Most of the vehicles "setup" up north, leave the shop exceeding the tow rating, hitch rating, GVWR, and axle ratings (a simple CAT scale will verify this). Follow their advice at your own peril. Just because someone hasn't died (yet), doesn't mean that its right/safe.

I have yet to see an independent review of the work they do. What I've seen, at Airforums and Facebook, is inexperienced fanboys promoting them to "expert"/"'guru" to justify their choice of underrated tow vehicles. Its like a marriage of convenience: If I call someone (who suggested I do something questionable) an expert, I am in a better position to defend my choice. Most of the fanboys live in cool, flat areas and travel infrequently and mostly locally (Very different than real world towing, going up and down the grades in the heat of the summer or during a rain storm or travelling hundreds of miles a day, where fatigue factor of using an underrated tow vehicle REALLY kicks in). The fanboys, have all memorized the articles published by the shop owner and over night have become legit "internet" towing experts. It seems whoever setups their vehicle up north, turns into an internet troll overnight, going to forums trying to convince the world they have made a great choice (I have never seen F250 or Tundra owners waste their time like this. They just prefer to go camping). Deep down those guys are not happy with their choice. Yet, arguing with them is like arguing with flat-earthers, or anti-vaxxers. Most quietly switch to a properly rated tow vehicle after a while, seemingly for un-related reasons.

The shop "reinforces" hitch receivers. I once asked the owner a simple question: "What is the rating of the reinfocred hitch receiver?" He went on and on without providing a simple answer. He said "You'll be fine", "Our customers have had no issues". etc. I realized that I have to ask my question differently. So I asked "Can the reinforced receiver handle 1000# ?". He said yes. I then asked him to put that info in the invoice and again he went on and on without agreeing. As far as I am concerned, the so called "reinforcement" is nothing but BS.

I have been RVing for 5 years now and am yet to see a single sedan/minivan/sports car pull into a campground towing a large trailer. I have never seen them on the road. All I've seen is heated discussions on internet forums about their merits. I don't understand, why are we discussing something that does not exist in the real world? We might as well start a discussion on big-foot. I'm sure there are more sightings of big foot that sedans/minivans/sport cars pulling a large trailer. The shop has spent 40 years promoting vehicles with low center of gravity and not even 0.001% of tow vehicles on the road are sedans/minivans/sport cars. I think the jury has firmly decided that low center of gravity tow vehicles ,with independent suspension, that do evasive maneuvers well, are NOT suitable tow vehicles.

[Razorback]

I really like this "setup"... works quite well (regardless of what anyone thinks of the brand), and is quite comfortable on the flats and in the hills. The ONLY thing I want to add is a TPMS and an exhaust brake.

I wonder how the northern god gets around the liability aspect of their "setup" and "reinforcing"?

[slowmover]

Rostam (and anyone else; “you”):

1). Does SAE or Airstream consider you an industry consultant (expert) on the subject of towing travel trailers?

2). How many TT tow combos have you set up? Over 12,000?

So “no one” uses cars, thereby a bad choice? On what premise?

Because —as always — you get in over your head at the outset, you might for a change TEST your beliefs. Where’s

A). The scale tickets (TARE, plus 3-Pass)?

B). The tire pressure records? (door sticker plus tire Load & Pressure Table)?

C). The solo, loaded, versus hitched emergency stopping distance from 60-mph change (shorter when hitched)?

D). Emergency lane change speed before tire lift?

Getting it right is something none of us needed Andy to show us. He and his Dad had the opportunity and took the responsibility to find out what worked and why. Made a set of formulas.

The only thing we know from your comments here and elsewhere is that you’ve no reference against which to make comparisons. Every one’s problem when new. But your own rig is subject to the changes you can make. Every combo rig has A RANGE of adjustments that work for it. Every owner has to find those highs and lows. They can be tested . . .

Plenty of pickup owners FAR overinflate their tires (10-psi above scale value) as a sop for poor hitch rigging (and poor TV choice). It’s the last of a long series of errors. Other suspension changes are a better approach.

As to reinforced or custom hitches

1). They’re stronger

2). They transfer weight more easily.

3). There’s not an OEM or aftermarket hitch receiver that can’t be improved. They’re NOT as good as the ones we had built 40-50 years ago in leveraging TW.

And what’s the noise about liability. That’s in the hands of the operator. Too fast for conditions, is the problem. A pickup, Towing, is outside safe handling/braking past 50-mph. Takes very little to get a wheel airborne.

These trailers don’t weigh jack. They’re not a challenge in the least on that score . The design and expense made it so. TW isn’t a concern in the least. WDH covers it. Past that one “needs” about 200-HP to cover any part of North America.

Stability is the key. Always has been.

4,000-lbs with low COG
122” WB, and short rear overhang
Fully independent suspension
Rack & pinion steering


Bigger than this takes away from stability. Takes away from handling, braking and steering

Gee, how do I know this? I spent twenty years using cars not real far off that description. Canada, the US, and Mexico . Did the tests. Made the adjustments. Researched. Coming across Andy twenty years ago was simply a pleasure. Not revelatory. He’s made it easy. Highlighted what matters. And why.

If on-road performance matters, why haven’t you changed the Avion to anti-lock disc brakes during the conversion to Tor-Flex axles?

Using a Hensley-patent hitch, yet?

TUSON trailer-Mount anti-sway?

Why not? Is traffic lighter than 50-years ago? Are speeds slower? Are drivers less reckless? More attentive?

It really is a laugh when I hear RVers cite their driving skill. Between worst and best of all drivers is a space so slim a feeler gauge can’t get in. It’s the road, the vehicle design, and driver attentiveness.

The short version of skill is : Space. (Never less than 300’. You back off till they’re gone. Make it easy to pass you. Cancel cruise. Never join or allow a pack to form around you. Ever).

So, another tack. You guys never need to rotate tires, right? 80-100k Service life is low. In 150k your vehicle has never needed a brake re-line, right? Your choices about how you drive are recorded there for all to see.

Statistics don’t entertain fantasy.

If you use a pickup then the Drive Axle Weight is as high or higher than the Steer Axle BEFORE hitching. Right?

.